Medicare Hot Topics with Joanne Giardini-Russell

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome everybody to the Retirement Power Hour podcast. My name is Joe Allaria. This is episode eight, and as you can see, I'm gonna be joined today by Joanne Giardini Russell. Joanne, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 (00:11):

Hi. Thanks, Joe. Thanks for having me here.

Speaker 1 (00:14):

So excited, Joanne, to talk about today's topic, which is Medicare, which is something that our clients and many baby boomers out there turning 65 every day. Is there still 10,000 every day? Turning 65, 11, 11,000. Wow. Got got

Speaker 2 (00:31):

To 11,000. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:33):

Alright. Alright. So, so many people having to deal with Medicare. Nobody teaches anybody about Medicare, aside from what you do and what we're trying to do, but you don't learn it in school. You don't, employers don't really cover much about this. So people end up turning 65, having no idea what Medicare is, what it does, how it works, what their options are. And that's what we're trying to help with today, is that those people that are, you know, approaching 65 or maybe even over 65 that are already on Medicare, hopefully we can give them some good information today and insights. And uh, Joanne is the owner of Giardini, um, Medicare. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that is just outside of Detroit, right, Joan? Right,

Speaker 2 (01:20):

Right. We're in Michigan. Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:21):

In Michigan. So, um, it works with clients, I assume, all over the country from our conversations.

Speaker 2 (01:27):

Yeah. We, we kind of focus on like a core dozen states, but we, yeah, we do cover a fair amount. So we've got a map on our website. Mm-Hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:33):

<affirmative> Awesome. Yeah. And I, and as I was telling you, Joanne, I, I saw, I've seen you on LinkedIn and all, all different sorts of places. The more research I did, the more places I saw you and kind of reviewed your stuff and that's why I was so excited to have you on. Of all the people that I've seen talk about Medicare, I'm like, Joanne knows her stuff, so we have to ask her to come on. And I'm so honored that you said yes. I, I've said before, like we were talking, I'm like this, she seems like too big of a deal to be on the retirement power hour, but I'll ask anyway. And here we are, you said yes. So this is awesome. That's 'cause

Speaker 2 (02:08):

I'm on TikTok now, so that's pretty impressive, right? <laugh>, right? <laugh>,

Speaker 1 (02:11):

Yeah. You can catch Joanne on TikTok as

Speaker 2 (02:14):

Well out.

Speaker 1 (02:14):

Yeah. <laugh>. Um, I don't think we're allowed to do TikTok in our, I don't think so. Little wealth management bubble, at least not right now, but, uh, yeah, check, check Joanne out. That's okay. On TikTok, but Joanne, you, you've kind of built your career in the insurance industry and then from reading your bio, it looks like you've been involved in a lot of different areas of the industry. So Yeah. Before we started talking about Medicare, I was just curious, how did you actually end up specializing in Medicare?

Speaker 2 (02:40):

Yeah, super long story short. So I'm, I'm 57. I came outta Michigan State years and years ago. And at, at 22 I went into medical malpractice. So I started there and then eventually I just, it was in every single type of insurance, home, auto, disability, everything. Um, hooked up with a financial firm. I was doing insurance kind of cases with them. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, actually kind of went into my little bit of financial field, um, not doing what you do, but I had a, the licenses and all that garbage. And I don't like that side of the world, but my oldest son who, uh, Cameron who works with me today and runs the agency with me Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, he needed a job outta college and so I threw him at these Medicare people that were actually trying to get me to sell Medicare at the time.

Speaker 2 (03:21):

This was years ago. Yeah. And I'm like, no, no, it's too crazy. I'm not going there. It's, I don't want anything to do with Medicare. I didn't know anything about it. Nothing. Right. And then he's very intelligent and he came right back to me immediately and he said, do you know how confusing this stuff is? And I was really intrigued. I'm like, what do you mean? And I, again, I'd been around these firms that nobody was talking about Medicare. So I'm like, you've got this thing that this kid is already identifying as super crazy confusing and stressful, so Right. But wait, but nobody's helping people with it. Like, that's really bizarre. And so our whole thing has really grown from, from that. Um, and then it was, it was done. I was just, we were all in the whole entire family at dinner time was, we were talking Medicare, talk about the biggest geeks at the dinner table. Just my poor husband was surrounded by Medicare talk. But it's, it's, it was sort of fascinating and, um, and we just, we just built the agency based on that. So that is what we do. So we only a hundred percent do Medicare. That's it. Yeah. So, and that's great. And you said do that for years?

Speaker 1 (04:17):

Yeah. You said you, your kids, um, they all work with you or

Speaker 2 (04:21):

They do Yeah. Two of 'em are agents. Yep. Two are agents. Currently Cameron was an agent till just December. He's pulled off and he's, you know, kind of running things more. So, um, we're in that growth mode where we have seven agents and we've got customer service people and it just, it's just at 11,000 people a day. It's crazy. Yeah. So you gotta know it to stay on top of it. So we're very hands on and, uh, it's, um, it's, it's, it's crazy. So you just, you do need more like us in the, in the, in the country. You really do. And there are some, there's some really great firms out there that do what we do. I don't think there's enough, you know, um Right. But it's, no, I, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (04:57):

And a lot of times we talk with clients. I mean, yes, we talk about investments. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But we also talk about retirement, retirement planning, taxes. You know, we talk about a lot of different things. We, we sort of view ourselves outside of, you know, specializing and, and helping with the investments in retirement planning. We quarterback or coordinate with and connect clients with specialists in other areas like accountants and attorneys and, you know, Medicare insurance specialists. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Because, you know, we can't be everything to everybody. Um, and, and, and neither can you, especially if you wanna be really good at something, then you probably need to sort of narrow your focus. And, and that's how, that's how we feel about investments in retirement planning. Um, but I tell clients, I'll never be your accountant. I'll never be your right attorney and I'll never be your Medicare specialist. Right. Um, because there's just too much, uh, to, you know, we know enough to be dangerous. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that's probably, you know, that's why we don't do it ourselves, is because if you make a wrong choice, it, it can be dangerous.

Speaker 2 (06:02):

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (06:03):

Absolutely. So I wanna get your, your take on a few of these things. You know, we've hosted some, some webinars on the basics of Medicare. Mm-Hmm. Medicare supplements versus Advantage. Um, so we're not, we won't go all into the very basics of anyone listening can go to our website, carcinallaria.com and sort of listen or, you know, and read some of the material we have there, or go to your, your, your website as well to learn the basics. But we're gonna skip forward and talk about Medicare supplements versus advantage. And as someone that spends every day dealing with various Medicare related issues, I wanted to get your take on how those nearing 65 or those that are older than 65 should evaluate supplements versus advantage. And my first question is, is one truly better than the other? And that's such a loaded question, but I'll just leave it with, leave it at that. Is one better than the other?

Speaker 2 (06:56):

You know, it is, it's loaded, but it's not loaded because I'm gonna say yes. Okay. And a lot of people won't just say Yes, but is one better than the other technically? Yes. Okay. So a true supplement follows original Medicare. So with, with what everyone needs to understand is, again, go back to those websites and, and just realize what a and B is. A and B is the government. Okay. That's your starting point. So whatever you pick after that, whether you drew a do a supplement or you do Medicare advantage, you have to have A and B in place and you're gonna pay for those. So, okay. That's a, that's a moot point. So that kinda shove that off to the side and decide, and then look at a supplement. So you pay more for a supplement every month. Yeah. And it follows original Medicare and it pays all your bills. So you're buying a contract to pay your bills. That's it. So let's just throw out $125 on average for a 65-year-old. Right. You're paying 125 a month, month in month out. Yeah. To pay your bills. Medicare Advantage, lots of 65% of those plans can be zero, premium zero. Right. So is it free on the surface? Yes. But will you have copays and things like that? It's all based on usage.

Speaker 1 (08:01):

Sure.

Speaker 2 (08:02):

But when you get back to better, you know, the supplement's going to pay all the bills is the Medicare advantage. No, it, it's just, it's so funny. Yeah. But every single person that we talk to, I know what they want. They want a Medicare advantage plan, they want free dental built in. Right. And they want it to be, they want it to be a supplement and they want it to cost zero.

Speaker 1 (08:23):

Yeah. And, uh, yeah, that's 'cause it has some of the bells and whistles and absolutely shiny, shiny objects, which are not,

Speaker 2 (08:31):

It's got some great perks. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (08:33):

For sure. And they're not, they're not bad. I mean, they're

Speaker 2 (08:35):

Not

Speaker 1 (08:35):

Bad at all. Silver sneakers memberships to the gym, like maybe some dental over

Speaker 2 (08:40):

The counter benefits over the counter, not the hundred a year, you know. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:44):

Get to spend your however much per quarter and just stock up on like bandaids and <laugh> different, whatever, you know, uh, clients, you know, I've got some clients that they really like doing that. Yes. Um, and then other people that are on maybe a more of a fixed income Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And they like that zero premium. So. Sure. Just to let, let me, uh, I maybe went too far too quick, but just really reviewing, uh, part A is hospital coverage, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, part B is medical, medical physician services. And like you said, you get that that's Medicare. Yeah. Would you say, is it right to say that folks out there should sort of consider that like an 80%, you know, it covers 80% of what their cost would be, but there's still that 20%, which is where you need to fill that gap with a supplement or an advantage plan? Is that Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:35):

Mostly correct. So it's, it's 80, right? If you have original Medicare, just A and B, you're gonna pay for that coverage. But you're, you have an 80 20 plan and you don't have coverage for the 20 unless you purchase that supplement. Yeah. The people with Medicare Advantage, they unfortunately, they still pay for part B, but they think they're still enrolled in the, in the original Medicare system and they're not. Yeah. So those folks are truly, don't look to Medicare to handle your bills, look to your carrier. Maybe it's Anthem, maybe UnitedHealthcare, maybe Humana, whatever. Right. Look to that carrier to pay your bill. So it's a different, and, and that goes back to the whole thing of, you know, is one better than the other? Technically if you're sick, sure. But does it mean it's better for everyone to buy it? No, it really comes down to usage. You know, what you want outta your health insurance. Some people have no problems with networks. Um, so there's not that one's bad or good, it's just understand. And that's what we'll we'll talk really lace throughout this entire conversation is just understand what you're buying, really understand what you're buying is the problem. People don't go into that Medicare scene with

Speaker 1 (10:36):

And Yeah, exactly. And I, I shared with you, and I'll share with the audience that when I first got into the financial industry, actually I, I did sell some Medicare supplements. That was one of the first things I ever learned in the industry. Uh, this was, you know, a long time ago, but, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they're actually, I would argue Medicare supplements are, are very easy to understand. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> because, because every plan across every company, plan N, plan G, whatever. Right. They all have to be the same. They're, they're standardized. So it doesn't matter if you're UnitedHealthcare or Mutual of Omaha, or Right. Whoever a Plan G is a plan G is a plan G is a plan G. Right. And, and they're the same. So your benefits won't vary. So that's, that actually makes it very easy. So what is the, I guess the two things you're looking at for Medicare supplements are just price.

Speaker 2 (11:33):

Price

Speaker 1 (11:34):

And

Speaker 2 (11:35):

Price and carrier. I would say really carrier, we focus on carriers a lot. Carrier stability. Right. Because you've got a lot of new players that come into the scene that, you know, they entice agents to sell their product because they're giving extra money and bonuses and all that. However, they can be gone in two years, you don't know. Or they can have a 30% rate increase in two years. So you gotta be careful. Yeah. And we're gonna talk about pre-existing conditions later, but that's a, a big factor. So we don't play that game. We stick with solid carriers across the country. Yep. We want stability. We don't want the complaints. You don't want the hassle. But looping back too to, when you talk about the ease, yes. You're looking at just price, but maybe perks, maybe some do have a gym membership. 'cause the carriers can throw some things in if they want to. Sure. Um, but the plans are standardized, so Yeah. So you're really not looking at very much. And then the other thing that makes Medicare, Medicare supplements so easy is that it follows original Medicare. So if you have a knee replacement, um, the government's paying 80% of the knee and the 20% is covered by your supplement. Yeah. That's it. You're not gonna see bills. It's just very easy. You can go to any doctor in the country that takes Medicare. Right. It's very easy. So

Speaker 1 (12:39):

Administratively, I think, would you say it's easier, and I'm kind of, I'm kind of leading into the next question on, do you have, do you find that you have a personal preference?

Speaker 2 (12:51):

I do because it's Medigap. So when people are sick, we routinely hear, well, well, a couple things. We either don't hear from them, you know, it's like, oh, I didn't tell you I got lung cancer two years ago. We don't hear if we don't hear from 'em for two years and they have their coverage that is telling you how great it's working. Right. Right. So they're very thankful when they have the good coverage. Right. Um, so that is huge. You know, if they have lung cancer with the Medicare Advantage plan, they're, you know, dealing with a network. Maybe they can't go to this cancer center, maybe they can't go here. Maybe they're, you know, chemo and radiation is a 20% copay. That's pretty darn pricey. So maybe they hit their max outta pocket of five grand that year and they're not super happy, but Right. But thank God they have the plan. One of the great and powerful things with Medicare Advantage is it has a max outta pocket. That's actually a great thing because if you have that 80 20 thing, 20 percent's not covered. I mean, or uncapped, I should say. There is no limit. So to put a Medicare advantagement plan in place for someone that can't afford it, that's fantastic. You've got a max out of pocket. That's great. Right.

Speaker 1 (13:51):

And so, you know, we've talked about this, like I said, on past webinars and, and we've never recommended one way or the other or, or the other. I think every situation's different. It's unique. You, you do need to look at where you live, what state you're in. Right. Right. Like you said, your, your network, are you traveling? How, how healthy are you? And there's, there's a lot of things.

Speaker 2 (14:12):

There's a ton.

Speaker 1 (14:13):

Yep. Um, and, but you know, I would say that, like you're saying Medicare supplements. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they're very straightforward. They're very simple. Yep. They, they're, it is good coverage. Um, you don't deal with the networks. You do have to pay a premium. That's, you know, that's, you

Speaker 2 (14:29):

Have to, you have to be okay with paying more money. That's it. You pay pay on a monthly basis. On a monthly basis on

Speaker 1 (14:34):

Monthly, on a monthly basis, you know, advantage, health wise, you're super healthy. You might have zero premium, you might never pay anything. Correct. Or not for several years. Um, but it works more like, I think like your coverage when you're working, because Totally. When someone says, Hey Joe, can you take a look at my health insurance options, which we do for our clients. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and gimme your thoughts on what you think. You know, I, I don't think I've ever looked at two that are the same. You know, they're all Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they're very different. Um, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that's what makes it really hard to compare. But Right on the flip side, it's really easy to compare supplements. Sure. So it doesn't mean that it is that advantage plans are are bad, I don't think. It just means that you really gotta dig in and understand Yeah. To, to take your words, what you're buying.

Speaker 2 (15:22):

Yep. There's a lot of moving parts. My coverage right now, I pay $807 a month for garbage, garbage coverage in Michigan. <laugh>. Okay. But I will say I never use it. So, you know, I, I haven't, knock on wood, I can't remember the last time I really paid for much other than, you know, a hundred dollars maybe for an ophthalmology visit. But all insurance is great until you need it. Right. So that's kind of the essence of, of what we do also. Um, but if I had my choice and I could be on this, you know, Medicare advantage plan now at my age, which I can't, I would take a zero premium, but I also know what's around the corner regarding preexisting conditions. So I probably wouldn't take it. So that's just me. And I'm willing to pay for healthcare. You have to kind of pull back and see what it is that you value about in insurance.

Speaker 2 (16:08):

It is insurance. At the end of the day, it's all insurance. You know, so everybody wants to have everything for free. Um, but when the house burns down, what kind of coverage do you want? You know, and I always kinda liken it to musical chairs. If the, if the event happens and you do get sick, what plan do you wanna be sitting in and what makes you feel good and sleep better at night? Right. Sure. And you can extend it to, to beyond just the plan. Maybe it's the family too. 'cause the family can be impacted by, this sounds crazy. It can be impacted by the person's choice. Maybe they have a Medicare advantage plan that says they can't go to the skilled nursing facility two miles from their house. They have to go to one 30 miles away. Or maybe they can't even get into the skilled nursing facility 'cause the plan said no. Right. Those are different rules and considerations. And then all of a sudden that affects everybody. The kids are scrambling. Well, how do we help dad because he can't get in there. Or he's, you know, half an hour away. So there's a lot to it that people don't see on the surface. They see zero and they see, or an expense for Medigap, they see, you know what I mean? They see two different things. And so we have to break down those conversations because it really just, you know, you want stress reduction

Speaker 1 (17:10):

With all this. Yeah. And, and like when you're saying zero premium, again, we're talking about those Medicare advantage plans that are out there. Some of them, many of them, they don't make you pay a monthly premium. Right. And your supplement, if you chose a supplement, you do pay a monthly premium. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But your supplement, that's, I don't wanna say that's all you pay, but let's say you get a plan G Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Then you pay your premium and there's a part B annual deductible of Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> a couple hundred dollars depending on when you're watching this, um, that you might have, that you'd have to potentially cover. And then, right.

Speaker 2 (17:44):

That's it.

Speaker 1 (17:45):

Prescriptions aside, yes. Prescriptions we're talking about those. Right now we're just, just talking about hospitalization and medical, you know, services. Once you pay your premium and Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> the Part B deductible. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, then you're done. You don't pay, you don't pay anything else. Right. Now on the, on the advantage side, again, you're not paying a premium and you have a max out of pocket like you've referenced. So that's a really good number to understand is if you go with advantage or if you're looking at advantage, what is the max out of pocket? And I would just assume sort of that that's your premium. Um, if it's way more than what you could pay for a supplement, I'm not sure. That makes a lot of sense. You know, if it's, we've had 'em where they've been kind of close Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and, uh, and the person's healthy and doesn't see the doctor much and they're thinking, well, geez, worst case scenario is I'm gonna pay, you know, pay this. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, whatever, $3,000. I don't even go to the doc. I see the doctor one time a year. So chance, chances are I probably pay $50. Right. Okay. That, that could make sense. That's great. You know, you might, you might come out ahead in, in that one, but, right,

Speaker 2 (18:54):

Right.

Speaker 1 (18:55):

Since you talked, since you brought this up, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump to this question. I'm gonna ask about pre preexisting conditions and, uh, when folks are transitioning to Medicare, are they, are they guaranteed coverage at the time of transition? And talk about maybe how that works. And does that, does that change based on if they choose Medicare Advantage or Medicare supplements?

Speaker 2 (19:21):

Yeah, so that's a really big deal that people take into retirement with them at age 65. They all think it's still Obamacare or group insurance where you can just do what you want regardless of your medical history. So what happens with Medicare is when somebody is 65 and enrolled in part B for the very first time, that's when a six month window kicks in. So some people, this window starts at 65, some people it starts at 68. Let's say they're retiring, they're coming to us saying, Hey, now I want my part B to start. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we help 'em get all that done. But their part B is starting when they're 68, 67, whatever they age they are. So, so it confuses people when that window is, but it's six months. The whole key is that you have a six month window when you first start to go to any agent in the country saying, Hey, I wanna plan G with a b, C insurance company. Don't ask me any medical questions. You know, and you might have cancer, you might have lupus, you might have a LS, you might have a kidney transplant two weeks ago, a heart disease, whatever. So they cannot deny you from getting that plan. So

Speaker 1 (20:20):

Six months from when you leave your group coverage to

Speaker 2 (20:25):

Potentially when you start part B start, it all gets triggered on part B coverage. Yes.

Speaker 1 (20:29):

And is that six months?

Speaker 2 (20:31):

So you have to be 65 or older and starting part B. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:34):

Does that, is that six months before, like how does that work? Does it straddle the time when you start part B or is it six months before or six months after?

Speaker 2 (20:44):

It's just the start date. So I have somebody who emailed me this morning that she started her part B May 1st. Okay. And I haven't talked to her, we haven't done a supplement yet, but she's got chronic conditions. So she knows she wants a supplement, but she, she's got six months from May 1st. Okay. So I literally always count on my fingers. May, June, July, August, September, October. So October here she has literally till November 1st. I can put an application in with any carrier with a November 1st, the latest start date for her to not be triggered. Any questions about her history, nothing. Yeah. Because in her case, she will not qualify for a supplement. So that's where you need to be careful. So if you're coming in with, with Ill is like that. You wanna know this right away. For sure.

Speaker 1 (21:24):

So, so you said she has preexisting conditions. She would not qualify for a supplement. She, but she can get a supplement if she does it in this window. Yes. Yes. But if she, if she waits or wants to change coverage later, then she will not you, then you have to answer health questions and then in her case, she would not be approved. So she needs Right. If she gets a sub, she can get one now. Right. But she'll probably not be able to change to a different supplement down the road. Right.

Speaker 2 (21:56):

Right. All bets are off later. And that, that to me is the whole gotcha moment to Medicare. Okay. So that's how I describe it. And this and this, you can, here's a little story to go along with that because a lot of people don't know this Gotcha piece. And that is the gotcha piece. 'cause they don't know about that six month window. But somebody called last fall, and she had called social secure and Medicare, I'm sorry, she called Medicare 1-800-MEDICARE. Mm-Hmm. And she got a plan with them a couple years ago. She was 67 last fall. She called. And she said that at age 65, that's how she found her plan. She got an Aetna PPO down south someplace. Um, and she said, it's working pretty well. I don't have a lot out of pocket at zero premium. I've been pretty happy with the coverage, she said. But I just sort of feel like, you know, I had, I had this and a polyp removed and I had this, and I, she's just starting to have little things happen. Right?

Speaker 1 (22:48):

Right.

Speaker 2 (22:48):

So she said, as I age, I just think I'm, I'll be better off with Medigap or supplement like my friend has. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So that's how she called us. And so I said, great. Makes total sense. Right. Let's start talking about your health history. She said, well I thought I could just get one because I'm calling between October 15th and December 7th, that's when the annual stuff starts. And I said, well, no, you have to answer medical questions 'cause you've been in that plan for a couple years talking through her medical, she had heart issues that will not allow her to purchase a Medicare supplement. She had no idea. So the downside, couple downside, she called Medicare. Medicare doesn't tell you about Medicare supplements. They enroll you in Medicare Advantage plans. They don't talk about Medicare supplements. They do not. Correct. So, yeah. Wow.

Speaker 1 (23:35):

Okay. I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (23:36):

Yeah. There's largely a shift because the government would prefer everybody in via Medicare Advantage plans. They pay the Medicare Advantage plans across the country to run those plans. 'cause what it does is it takes the risk off of Medicare. Right. And

Speaker 1 (23:47):

Cost. Oh yeah, for sure. Right.

Speaker 2 (23:49):

Right. So they don't discuss those. So that's how she ended up with that. So it's really just a bummer then. That's, that was her only, how would she know?

Speaker 1 (23:57):

So it's not a bad, like I said, and it's not necessarily a bad thing, but if you want, and, and that's one of my next questions is, that's a major difference between these two options of Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, should I get a supplement? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or should I get an advantage plan? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> we talked about if you get a su you, you can, anyone can get a supplement if you get it in the, at the

Speaker 2 (24:19):

Right time, that window.

Speaker 1 (24:20):

Right. You said six months after you start part B. Right. So that's, that's good to know. I have six months after I start part B. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that, I'm assuming that's if you're working, you're retired,

Speaker 2 (24:30):

Anything Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:31):

Yep.

Speaker 2 (24:31):

Just starting part B. Yep.

Speaker 1 (24:33):

But anytime you wanna change a supplement, go from supplement to supplement, uh, or I guess I should say go from Advantage plan to supplement both. Anytime. Anytime you wanna go to a new supplement, you're gonna have to answer health questions Yeah. After that six months forever.

Speaker 2 (24:51):

Right. Right. So the

Speaker 1 (24:53):

Difference is advantage. You don't have to do that.

Speaker 2 (24:56):

Correct. And so that, that's where the industry advertises that whole open enrollment time. Yeah. They call it you can change. A lot of people will just say, agents will even say, well, you can just change your plan next year if you don't like it. And I'm sure that was what she kind of heard with Medicare when she called in for that plan. They said, well, if you don't like the TNA plan, you can change next year. The consumer hears they have carte blanche, they go get what they want <laugh>. Right. And then it's not true. Right. Right. So just just imagine being the consumer that you just didn't know it was available to you and you would've picked it maybe. Yeah. Right. It's just not fair. It really isn't fair at the end of the day. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:30):

And

Speaker 2 (25:30):

I'd be really angry.

Speaker 1 (25:32):

There's a couple, there's a couple windows. Uh, there's the October 15th right to December 7th. Is that correct? Yeah. Okay. I got that one. Right. Good job. All right. Um, and tell us just what you can do during that. 'cause there, I, my understanding, I thought there was another, there used to be another window that was at the beginning of the year, January, march.

Speaker 2 (25:56):

There is. Yeah, there is. So maybe,

Speaker 1 (25:57):

Uh, maybe tell us first what that first window Okay. What you can do during that one.

Speaker 2 (26:02):

That's an important window too, because October 15th of December 7th, like you said, you can change your Medicare advantage plans. 'cause if you really have one and you didn't like it, or maybe your doctor doesn't take it anymore or something like that happens, yeah. You can change your plans. Right. What happens is every September, everybody needs to understand that with Medicare Advantage and which prescrip with prescription drug plans, it's super important to pay attention to your mail in the month of September. In September. All the plans are legally required to, to give you their changes and tell you what's going on, what this is gonna happen with your plan. This drug isn't covered. This is your premium's changing whatever's going on with your plan. Right. That's your time, time to really look at your, with your plan. Right. And then if you wanna make a change, fine during that window, make the change and the new plan will kick in December 1st. If you hear this and you decide you, I didn't know that about Medicare Advantage, I'd prefer to get Medigap and I'm still come, you know, healthy, then you apply during that same window too. And you would start January 1st. Um, if you have an older

Speaker 1 (27:01):

Yep. If I could, I actually, I sure I might not have understood that. So if you're on an advantage plan Yes. And you wanna go to a supplement, you have to do it in that window as well. Yes.

Speaker 2 (27:12):

Yes. That's your window. Otherwise, there's also another window, January, February, March, which allows us to take people off of an advantage plan and go back to a supplement as well and get a drug plan. You can't change drug plans in January, February, March. So you've got all these crazy timing windows, you know, with that

Speaker 1 (27:29):

Just makes no sense to me because I'm,

Speaker 2 (27:31):

It doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 1 (27:32):

I'm sitting here thinking, okay. Um, let me, let me mention something that we may not have touched on, but if you wanna go from supplement to supplement, you can do that anytime of the year. Yes. Right? Yes. So you can do supplement to supplement anytime during the year. Right. Doesn't matter. Right. Okay. So that's one thing. Right, right. Right. We said if you wanna go from, gosh, now you gotta keep it all straight. But if you wanna go from uh, supplement to an advantage plan, then that has to be October to January.

Speaker 2 (28:04):

Well, October. But then you have January, February, March that opens up again. So it's, it's,

Speaker 1 (28:09):

So you can go from supplement to advantage plan the beginning of year. But if you wanna go from pretty much, if you wanna go from advantage to supplement, though, it has to be the end of the

Speaker 2 (28:19):

No. 'cause that one we can do January, February, March, we can extend it. Okay. So kind of think October till, till March. It's not super advertised. It's, it's just crazy. So

Speaker 1 (28:27):

What what I, and this isn't, I didn't send this to you ahead of time, but I just curious, <laugh>, what are these periods called actually? So you've got the October to December is called, what is the name of that enrollment?

Speaker 2 (28:40):

That's actually the annual election period. It's not open enrollment, which is what throws people off. Open means implies you can do whatever you want. Right? Yeah. It's the annual election period. A EP is what we call it.

Speaker 1 (28:52):

And what's January through March,

Speaker 2 (28:55):

That is a Medicare Advantage, uh, dis-enrollment period. January, February, March. So you can only do a couple things there. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:02):

Gotcha. Okay. So, which is

Speaker 2 (29:03):

Always interesting because it's like, well if the government ever wants everyone in Medicare Advantage, why do they give you this big window to get out of it? Potentially? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:10):

Right.

Speaker 2 (29:11):

And then you've got other things. So I don't wanna ignore two, but I don't wanna dive into it either. But there's things called trial rights. So maybe you at age 65 went to Medicare Advantage and you didn't, you didn't, you learned that you didn't like it, then you can get out. So there's all these different nuances, which just really go means to just find somebody that knows Medicare because Right. Exactly. There's so much to this. You know, you don't have 10 hours a day to do Medicare. So we do

Speaker 1 (29:34):

Not about, I've had that thought a few times just as we've been talking. It's like, I'm sure if you're out there listening, you're, you're wondering what in the heck, you know, <laugh>. Right.

Speaker 2 (29:43):

What is she talking about?

Speaker 1 (29:45):

<laugh>? Your head's not spinning yet. It probably will. I would say there's no reason that it needs to be this complicated. But it is. It just, but it's, uh, it's silly. It's not Joann's fault. It's not my fault. It's just, it's just how it is. Right. Shouldn't be, but, but it is. Um, yeah. And so one thing you mentioned that I want to just make sure people hear is that if you do choose advantage Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, um, you have, I think it's a 12 month window, correct? Yes. You do. To change your mind and go on a supplement guarantee issues. Is that right?

Speaker 2 (30:17):

Yes. But you have to make sure that that trial rights, you're very close. You have to make sure you've done that at age 65 if you are an employer coverage. And this happened recently to, a guy came to us, he was on employer coverage and at age 68 he left employer coverage, went right to Medicare Advantage. He thought he had trial rights to come back in 12 months. He does not. The only time you get trial rights like that is when you go right directly to it at age 65.

Speaker 1 (30:42):

Okay.

Speaker 2 (30:43):

So that makes it, who would, right. Who's gonna know that? He argued and he called Medicare and it, it's not possible.

Speaker 1 (30:48):

And again, uh, I would say yeah, I, I feel like he's right. I mean, yeah, why would that be? But anyway, he's not, he was, he wasn't. Right. But he, you know, he, I'm on his side too. I think he should have been able to.

Speaker 2 (31:00):

Me too, but he can't. Yeah. So I told him, I said, go call the carrier. If they'll give it to you, that's great, but I will not put it through 'cause it's wrong <laugh>, you know, so. Right. And he called and they said, no, we won't do that. So, so,

Speaker 1 (31:11):

So supplement advantage, you know, supplements, like we said, they're, they're more flexible and when you can change so that maybe, you know, gives them a point in their, on their side. Yeah. If you're keeping score here, supplements you can change whenever you want. You do have to have answer health questions. Right. Advantage you can't change whenever you want, but you don't have to answer the health questions. Yeah. Right. Or are there, are there any health questions you have to answer to be insured under Medicare

Speaker 2 (31:34):

Advantage? No. No. There used to be, um, end stage renal disease, but they took that off a couple years ago. Okay. So there's nothing, absolutely

Speaker 1 (31:40):

Nothing. I was gonna ask about that because I thought that was the one, but good. See it. Learn something new today. I mean, this is wasn't the first thing, but <laugh>, um, let's, uh, let me look here. So one of the, one of the problems that you kind of just mentioned is people sometimes continue to work, right? Um, but people have different situations. Not everybody retires at 65. Some people are before some people can continue working. Um, and I, I know that one of the major issues or questions that we get is, do I, do I need to enroll? Um, and there are penalties for maybe not enrolling and part a, part B certain things. So I know, 'cause I've researched this enough that you won't be able to answer that fully because of all the situations. But can you just shed some light on Yeah. Do people need to enroll at 65?

Speaker 2 (32:30):

Yeah. And that's my favorite question actually, because I, I start every webinar seminar with that whole concept of do you even need to enroll just because you're 64 and a half and approaching approaching 65? Our big question for us, and that's our job, is to figure out do you need to do it? And the answer is no. There's a really great fact sheet with the government from CMS and it says, deciding whether or not to enroll in Medicare at age 65. That means deciding whether or not that doesn't mean automatically do it. Right? It's like just stop and read and look well logically. So that's all we really do. So we come in and just say, okay, if you're working and it's a large employer, which is over 20 employees, you're on their group plan. You like your insurance, maybe your spouse is on the plan, you're gonna work a couple more years.

Speaker 2 (33:16):

You're not contributing to an HSA. If all those factors fit you go ahead and enroll in part A of Medicare only. Do not do part B and then come see us when you need part B. That's it. Great. That's how easy it can be. However, let's say in that a little equation you are working, it's a large employer, you're not doing your, I mean you are funding your HSA and you love your HSA and you don't wanna give it up. Well then don't do anything with Medicare. That's it. <laugh> don't do anything. Right. Um, the only time you're automatically going to be signed up in Medicare is if you're taking and collecting your social security benefits prior to H 65. Those people will automatically be enrolled into Medicare, both A and B. But it doesn't mean they have to keep Part B. So same kind of assessment.

Speaker 2 (34:00):

Well, I'm on my husband's plan, I don't need part B. Well then turn the little card over, sign it and give it back and it goes away and you don't pay for it. So, right. It it, we try and make it that simple. I know it sounds a little silly and I'm trying to be basic, but that's how it should be. It's like you have a basic half dozen questions. Right. And that's, that's the most important thing is to triage that situation. And every person should be doing that at 64 and a half and going through the little triage conversation. We get people calling and say, well turning 65 this month and I'm doing an HSA, blah blah blah. And the last person I talked to, I said, well, don't do anything. She's like, shoot <laugh>. And she already did. She already enrolled. I'm like, well why are you calling two weeks before? Right.

Speaker 1 (34:38):

You know, because she wanted to, yeah, she wanted to hear that she did the right thing. But yeah,

Speaker 2 (34:43):

<laugh> and she did it. I said, well if you wanna do Rachel, say then you just did the wrong thing. She said, but HR told me to do it. I said, well, HR is wrong and you shouldn't have done that. Right. So she was able to unwind it, but she caused all this stress for herself where all she had to do was call us two months prior to when she did. Right. So just don't wait. I know you're all paranoid. I know you don't know who to call and all that kind of stuff, but you only hurt yourself. Right.

Speaker 1 (35:03):

So, and um, as far as the penalties, I wanna make sure I'm, I have my understanding on this. Yep. Uh, correct. So if Mo, for most people, it's not for everybody, but for most people part A is free. Correct. If you have enough work credits quarters

Speaker 2 (35:22):

Yep. Quarter.

Speaker 1 (35:22):

Yeah. Um, then part a's free, therefore there's never any penalty for not enrolling or enrolling late in part A. Correct. Correct. Right. Okay. Right. But part B Yep. You do have to pay for Yes. Regardless of your, you know, your uh, how many quarters you have. Yep. And there is a penalty for part for enrolling late in part B. Can

Speaker 2 (35:44):

Be. Yep. There can be. That can, there can be. So you

Speaker 1 (35:47):

Wanna talk a little bit about that? Maybe just a Yep. Okay.

Speaker 2 (35:50):

Yep. It affects very, I guess it affects far less people than you would guess. And people, okay. People really, the industry is driven on this part B penalty thing and oh my gosh, you gotta do something. It's like the scare tactic to get you to sign up for Medicare and you don't need to, so only 4% of the people in the country are, are affected by a Part B late enrollment penalty. So when you think about it logically, so what happens is if you're 65 and you're working and you don't need part B, you're gonna defer that. Um, again, certain parameters apply, so always check with somebody. But if it becomes that you don't need it, then fast forward three years. You know, let's pretend there's Ford Motor Company in my backyard. Somebody is working there at age 68. They come to us and say, okay, now I'm gonna retire.

Speaker 2 (36:30):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, did you get part B? No, I didn't. I I didn't need it. You're right. You didn't need it. Great. So what we do is there's a form called an L 5 64. That form is fantastic. I can send it to you so you can have that on hand. Yeah. That form goes back to HR at Ford and all they do is sign off that Joe Smith has had Ford coverage since he was 65 years old. That goes to social security with Joe. When he signs up for part B, he says, Hey, my Ford insurance is ending in August, so I need my Medicare to start in September. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then it gets all hooked up and there is no penalty. So again, that form is what verifies that he is had coverage now. Right. If Joe retired at 65 and did absolutely nothing for coverage for three years just because he was living in a cave and didn't need health insurance and he just did nothing. Yeah. Then he decides, he wakes up at age 68 and says, oh my gosh, I need Medicare. He's gonna get a penalty. 'cause he had zero coverage for three years. Right. That's a late enrollment penalty situation. But they, again, when you think logically, nobody calls us and says, Hey, I'm gonna retire in three months. Can I get my coverage together in a year and a half from now and then have a penalty? 'cause they have a gap. Right. Right.

Speaker 1 (37:35):

You know what I mean? It's

Speaker 2 (37:36):

Like what about they're worried about their coverage?

Speaker 1 (37:38):

What about people that work for small employers that are gonna work past 65? 'cause this just, I just read it on medicare.gov. You know, that's where we just shared any, any info, any information we put out or event we've done. It's always from medicare.gov and it medicare.gov. I think from what I read in the past says uh, that if you have 20 or under

Speaker 2 (38:03):

20 or more under, okay.

Speaker 1 (38:05):

Um, then you don't, then you can defer Part B. But if you don't have 20 or more, then even if you keep working you have to sign up for Part B.

Speaker 2 (38:15):

Well, and the reason is it's different. Yes. And that is true. So if it's an under 20 situation, you got a small CPA firm with eight people. Right? Yeah. And that person's turning 65. The reason they have to sign up for part A and B in that play in that case is because on the day that the person turns 65, this gets extra confusing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> then Medicare becomes primary insurance for them. Whatever company they have at work, they can still stay on their employer coverage and they will not get a penalty. But they have to. So it's a different issue. It's a claims issue more so than a late enrollment penalty. Because again, Medicare is primary insurance. If they don't have primary insurance in place, if they just ignore it. And actually, here's another great example. 'cause the stories tend to really teach the most. Yeah. We had somebody was, it was in that situation in January, she turned 65, she called Social Security and said, Hey, should I enroll in Medicare? They told her, are you, they asked her, are you still working? She said yes. They didn't ask how many employees.

Speaker 1 (39:12):

Right.

Speaker 2 (39:12):

Big problem. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So she, there were three is all okay. She did not do part B of Medicare. She did the free part A. Yeah. And she did not do part B. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, unfortunately, she has an oncologist. She has cancer, she had scans, she had all this stuff going in January, February, March, April this year. Oh. She called us in May because she got bills for $20,000 that were racking up because her, her insurance company, now again, remember she stayed on her group insurance. She thinks she's fine because she called social security. They said, you're still working, you're on group insurance. The group insurance carrier, rightly so, said, well we're not covering those claims because you should have been on Medicare in January, part B you were not and then therefore you're going to pay 20 grand. We were able to fix her from, you know, may, June onward. But we can't go backwards and fix those claims. So that's the danger to the small employer situation. So you can see it's not a late enrollment penalty situation. She's not getting a late enrollment penalty. And that's what people worry about.

Speaker 1 (40:13):

She doesn't get a late enrollment.

Speaker 2 (40:15):

She's enrolled.

Speaker 1 (40:17):

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:18):

Right. So I mean now she is, but at the time, but no, she would not get a late enrollment penalty because she has qualified coverage. So it's, it's very hard to understand the difference there. A lot of agents even goofed that up. She has coverage, she has employer coverage. She's fine. She would never, even if she never went and got part B for two years, she would not have a late enrollment penalty. 'cause she has qualified worker coverage. The issue was a claims issue.

Speaker 1 (40:40):

So if she didn't have employer coverage Yes. Then she didn't have part B, then she would have the late enrollment penalty.

Speaker 2 (40:46):

The key is if you didn't have employer coverage. Correct. If she had just bought her own coverage in the marketplace and stayed on it for two or three years 'cause she wanted to, then she's gonna get late enrollment penalty. Gotcha. So a lot of the key is it's worker coverage.

Speaker 1 (40:58):

That is, uh, probably a big misconception then because it is the, um, you know, again, Medicare dot gov's not really clear about this. No. Um, but it says 10% for every year that you didn't sign up that you could have signed up for life. Correct.

Speaker 2 (41:12):

Which true,

Speaker 1 (41:14):

That is a, it's

Speaker 2 (41:15):

True if you had marketplace or if you kept on Cobra for 36 months. But those things don't really happen very often. They really don't.

Speaker 1 (41:22):

Right. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (41:23):

No. So it there's all these little nuances that get tough. Yeah,

Speaker 1 (41:26):

Yeah, yeah. No, they, they don't happen very often. Um, gosh, we're running out of time. There's so many different questions I want to get to. This is all very, very helpful. Good information. Um, let me try to hit a couple quick ones. Sure. We're talking about enrollment. There's a seven month window to enroll in Medicare. Yep. Is it best to do it early

Speaker 2 (41:48):

If you know you need Medicare? Again, go back to that question. Do I need to do it if I need to do it? Like if you know you, if you have marketplace coverage and you absolutely need to go to Medicare next, then absolutely. Just file early. Yep. Does it affect file effect three months prior?

Speaker 1 (42:02):

Does it affect the effective date of your part a part B or prescription drug coverage? If you don't do it,

Speaker 2 (42:07):

It does. And so if you wait until after, like I've got someone right now, she's turning 65 in uh, September, and she wants to retire at the end of the year. I said, well, don't do anything without talking to us. Because if she doesn't, if she, if she files in October or November and December, it's, she's still in her seven month window. She's, she thinks she's fine. It's gonna have a delayed start date for her, her part B. And she doesn't really understand that. So we have to, we have to really plan out when we want it to start. She's just thinking it'll just start. So be very careful if you're trying to start it a certain month and you're in your, they

Speaker 1 (42:43):

Don't backdate. No, they don't backdate your part B start date, even if you're in the seven month window. No. Or your drug coverage for that matter, I'm assuming.

Speaker 2 (42:51):

Well, drug coverage you can get as soon as you have part A. So part A, they always start with the month you turn 65. So they would backdate that part, but they don't do part B, which is could cause you problems. So it's just a, it's another goofy social security rule.

Speaker 1 (43:06):

So at this point, we've already said it, but you know, don't think you have to memorize all this stuff. Right. If you're getting ready to turn 65, you know, and you're listening, obviously, you know, if you're a client of ours, you're in our area, give us a call. What we're gonna do is we're gonna connect you with, uh, Joanne or someone like Joanne who's, uh, you know, licensed in the state of Illinois. Who, or Missouri or wherever we're at here and Right. And we're gonna talk through your situation. Um, I, I definitely know this is way too much to to, to digest, but it's, you know, these are the issues. These are the questions. So. Right. What else are we gonna talk about? Right Joanne? So, right. So, um, we'll keep going here. A couple other quick ones. Uh, I think, you know, 'cause I think I've seen some of your material material on this. So I have a an idea of what you're gonna say. But one of the places people go to get information about Medicare is the social security office. Is that a good place to do that? To get information? Horrible,

Speaker 2 (44:00):

Horrible, horrible. I had someone this week that literally went to sign up for their part B and then they came out dejected. They called and they said, well they told us that we have a one month gap if we're getting a penalty and she can't have medical next year. And said, you know what? They're absolutely incorrect. I'll send you the information. I will send you their policy manual. Yeah. And you can go show the person tomorrow when you have to go back in that they're wrong. So they went back in literally yesterday, sent me a texter that was so easy. He put it, he is done. So thank you. So don't do that <laugh> bad advice. Yeah. Or they just, they they just, they'll process wrong. So you just don't wanna take right them. Well, on the surface, you don't wanna listen to hr. You don't wanna listen to, you don't wanna listen to your friends and family. Honestly. You don't really wanna li I mean, I don't, I don't mean not Listen, listen. Write down the questions that you have related to what all these people are saying. Yeah. And then go find somebody qualified that can give you the answers. And if you need to ask five agents, go ask five agents.

Speaker 1 (44:59):

By the way, that goes for social security advice too.

Speaker 2 (45:02):

Yes.

Speaker 1 (45:02):

Yes. Um, we tell people don't rely on Social security. And you would think, well, social Security office, well, don't rely on the Social Security office. 'cause I've had multiple instances Yes. Where they give wrong information. Correct. Uh, that, so it goes for Medicare social security. That goes for investing too. Don't, don't rely on, um, on

Speaker 2 (45:22):

Me. Don't rely on me. Don't

Speaker 1 (45:23):

Rely on your neighbor, your family members, you know, your coworkers to give you investment advice. Because I can tell you, uh, the vast majority of the time where I've heard about cases where that's happening, it's not good advice. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And they don't know your situation. You know, I I, I can't give, not to get on a tangent, I can't give any investment advice when I don't know your financial situation. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, there's no one mutual fund or stock that's just great for everybody. Right. Because everyone's in different, different positions. So, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Anyway, I can't get on a tangent 'cause we're running outta time here, Joanne. So, um, rounding out the discussion, I wanted to just, I wanted to just briefly hit on this subject of Irma Yeah. And what it is and how it works. And again, people probably aren't aware. Most people aren't aware this is something we, we help with and target and make sure, but can you just share what is Irma? What is it? How does it work?

Speaker 2 (46:17):

Yeah. And it's great that you pay attention to it. 'cause a lot of advisors don't. So a lot of people come to us and they start with their Medicare and we'd say, well, do you know how much your medi, your Part B is gonna cost you? And they're floored because we even asked the question, we're like, you know, they're like, no. Well, it's based on income. And when you file this year in 2022, they're gonna look at your 2020 tax return as a couple, both of you. And if you're modified, adjusted, gross is in, you know, whatever range it is, there's six different levels. And that's, you know, the base rate is $170 and 10 cents. And if you're under 191,000 I think it is this year it's um, a hundred, 170. So yeah, if you're in the top tier, if your income is over 750 grand, which is high, um, you're gonna pay $578 a month for the same insurance. All right, so same coverage. This is just tiered. It's what's that?

Speaker 1 (47:04):

Same coverage, same exact coverage,

Speaker 2 (47:05):

Same identical coverage, right? You're just paying more than your friend because you make, you have higher income and it's not net worth, right? It's income. So people are shocked by that. So high net worth people are absolutely floored by that. And they also think, when I say $578, they think that's per, um, per a couple. And it's like, no, that's per person per month <laugh>. So all of a sudden they add a supplement and drug coverage and all that garbage. They're at 800, 8 50 a month and they are shocked that it's as high as it is. So again, they have high income. So it's fortunate for them for that piece. But, um, that's where you have the ability to though, if you do retire, let's say you retire and your income goes from here down to here, you file a form called an SS 44 and you request that they red redetermine that number. And that just means, Hey, I retired. I don't have the same money I had a couple years ago. Can you gimme a lower rate? And they will, they'll definitely do that. So you have that, you can do that for a couple situations with, um, retirement, death of a spouse, maybe a divorce, uh, maybe you sold rental property that was giving you income, things like that. So

Speaker 1 (48:05):

Who do you file that with?

Speaker 2 (48:06):

Social Security. Social Security office. And

Speaker 1 (48:09):

Is that, so what year's income is used? So someone's turning 65, this is very common. You know people Yes. Retire. Let's just say they retire 65 mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And they go on Medicare. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And you know, they've been working, but now they're not. So what, what year income is used to determine your premium or your surcharge if there is

Speaker 2 (48:33):

1 20 22. So right now they'll be looking at this current year's income. So if you're retiring now and you're gonna be, you know, $80,000 less than you were two years ago. Two years ago, if you file that paper right two years ago, they're gonna look at your 2020 tax return. That's what social security is pulling. And they're sending you a letter saying, Hey, you made this month much in 2020 based on that, this is your Medicare premium. And if you look at that premium and say, well, I don't make that much anymore, then there's, then there's, that's a valid situation where you can go send that form in.

Speaker 1 (49:04):

Do you think that a lot of people just get charged surcharges and and never and, and they're, they have lower income and they just, nothing ever happens. I mean, does it ever get corrected if they don't file the form and they pay too much and then they file their taxes? Does it, do they get some money back?

Speaker 2 (49:22):

No, not in the current year. But what'll happen is every year, so 2023, as soon as January hits next year, they're gonna look at 2021 income. So it's gonna keep rolling. So eventually it'll flatten out because their new reality is gonna kind of come through. But be proactive, go get your money now, now. And we've seen some people get paid back even till January if they file it, you know, late. So, um, let's say, let's

Speaker 1 (49:46):

Say that, let's say that, uh, I didn't file the form and I went two years on an artificially high income paid Irma surcharges and all that. Yeah. Again, if I never file the form, am I ever getting that money back?

Speaker 2 (50:00):

No. Pretty much. No, no. You can, some people can file in June and go, it'll go back to January. But you can't just say, well I didn't know that from five years ago and I want my money back. Right. They're not

Speaker 1 (50:09):

Gonna give it to you. So that's, I think that's important. I think, I think that probably happens to more people than it does, than they realize. 'cause they don't, they just, well here's what they're telling me it's gonna cost and I'm just gonna pay it, even though Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:19):

And they gripe and they complain and they gripe and all that, but they could, a lot of them could fix it. We've seen people go from the top tier to the bottom tier, you know, selling a business. If you sell a business this year and on paper it's $5 million for the sale, then you show a sale of document one page, just show one or two pages most, and you send that in as your proof and just, you know, because you know, Joe has me living off of 150 grand, even though I got a $5 million sale. They will exclude that and you'll go from 5 78 down to one 70. That's huge.

Speaker 1 (50:47):

Really? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:48):

Huge. So think of how you're structuring your business sale. Are you doing it over five years? Are you doing it in one year? Right. Because then you can easily argue the one year. But I talked to someone recently who, um, sold a business, but they also have some rental property as part of the, it's a lease going on and that's producing 550,000 a year for five years. Well, they just stuck themselves in the, the income category, the higher ones because of the, because how they structured the sale of the business,

Speaker 1 (51:12):

Which, so if it's a sale of a business in one, in, in this year, they sell a business this year, that income from that sale can be excluded. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Okay. Yep.

Speaker 2 (51:24):

Yep. Good to know. To show the one page sale document, we did it recently with someone sold a marina, so, so show the document and they were gonna be living off of 150 or 130 grand, you know, with reality. Right. And, um, they totally got it reduced and now they'll have to do it again next year because when they look back, it's gonna be in that one year, you know, that keeps creeping up. But so what, you just kind of, you do the same paperwork next year and that's totally, yeah. Doable.

Speaker 1 (51:49):

Awesome. Alright, well my last question here is, uh, is my favorite one. I know one of your favorite people in the world is Joe Namath. Uh, <laugh> <laugh>, yeah. Joe Naman famous, uh, quarterback from, uh, decades ago, right? Uh, national Football League, NFL Quarterback. I'm sure everyone listening kind of knows who Joe

Speaker 2 (52:12):

Is. Oh, everybody sees him on tv, right? Um,

Speaker 1 (52:14):

But, uh, I, I say that a little sarcastically because I know that in your world he's not one of your favorite people, so why not? What's your, what's wrong with Joe Namath? Why is he on your, your bad, your bad list,

Speaker 2 (52:28):

You know? And now it's Jimmy Walker and Joe Namath, and there's a whole bunch.